Role-play, Rituals and the Right Questions with Harley Dubois [Burning Man Project]

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Harley Dubois, one of Burning Man's founders. was responsible for designing the infrastructure that makes the week-long immersive experience possible. After 10 years of running Black Rock City, and now as Chief Culture Officer for Burning Man Project, she has learned that robust frameworks that foster psychological safety are absolutely crucial to unleash the full potential of people. Her authentic, provocative stories cover how she’s forged trust and lost it, what she’s learned from leading the 13,000 strong team of volunteers that make the event possible. She challenges the traditional concept of leadership.

+ Transcript

KATZ: Welcome to Humans, Leading Humans towards a Future of Work that works for people. A smorgasbord of snackable stories to help you you be a more effective leader. My guest this week is a super good friend, and one of my guiding lights, a wonderful woman. We do like having women leaders on our show, who, after many years of running Black Rock City is now the Chief Cultural Officer of the Burning Man Project. She is a woman who can successfully lead a team of 13,000 volunteers, can you imagine that? We’ve got a lot to learn from her.

But first, in time honoured ritual, let me explain why. I'm dedicating time to make this podcast for you with love.

If you work for a company or an organisation of any type, which is private or public, and you work with humans. If you lead teams, and you're finding it tough to motivate them to keep them on track, to get them going where you know there should be going.

Bring on Humans Leading Humans. This will become your audio fuel kit, packed with the real stories, the tools and inspiration that we all need to shine as leaders. It's for those times when you need to re energise, to be inspired, to believehat you can succeed. Because here's the thing, leaders across the world have succeeded. They have proved that you get the best out of people if you create environments of psychological safety. And I am really lucky because I know a lot of those wonderful people… so I'm on a quest to collect those stories, to give you the courage and the know how to lead more human.

So before we meet Harley. I want to say a massive, massive thanks to all of those people who've DM me on LinkedIn, and through the contact form www.wearebeep.com to tell me how much that they're enjoying it. It means such a lot to me to hear from you that it means a lot to you so please keep sending your feedback. It energises me.

Next week's guest is John Hagel, you may have heard of him. So listening to him, reading his books. It's like a breath of fresh air to me. Having spent 40 years working in Silicon Valley, with companies like Atari and McKinsey, and as Managing Director of Deloitte centre for the edge he has learned a lot. And he has a really interesting take on what the future of work should look like and it mirrors my own exactly. So I'm really looking forward to finding out which three stories he'll choose to tell

But I can't keep you waiting for one more second, let me introduce to you,. Harley DuBois

Harley, I am so delighted that you're making time to be interviewed for the Humans Leading Humans podcast. And I can't imagine which of your many stories that you're going to choose to tell. So I wonder whether just to let the listeners understand how we know each other I wonder whether you could tell the story of how we met

HARLEY: It was kind of a silly story. Larry Harvey, who was the founder of Burning Man and I traveled to the UK. We knew that there were a lot of burners there (those are people that go to Burning Man) and we knew that there were connections we needed to make there, but we didn't really know who to talk to. So, we have a lovely employee Jen Sander who was living in the UK. She is really good at finding unique extraordinary interesting people, and she really understands Burning Man, so she found you. And she brought me to your office and you took time out of your very busy schedule to spend time with me and to get to know me. I had no idea why I was meeting you and I don't really think you knew why you were meeting me.

KATZ: And here we are, years later and knowing you, and having been to Burning Man twice. I can honestly say that the experience of seeing what happens when you're in an environment in which people can thrive was just so transformational for me. To be honest, it's been a trigger. It changed my life.

HARLEY: Wonderful.

KATZ: You’ve changed my life. So, do you want to explain because so many people are listening to this,… when I first met you I didn't really know what Burning Man was and I didn't know why I was meeting you so I wonder if you could just explain to the people who are listening, what is Burning Man.

HARLEY: Yeah, that's a really hard question to answer. I'll try to be as short as possible. People think that it's a crazy event in the desert. And it is. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. What we found is that you can't be crazy, you can't have fun, you can't self Express, If you don't have a framework to make it safe and to make it a place where you can really explore yourself and learn. So we really quickly recognised that we're a community much more than we are an event in the desert, and that what we really teach people is leadership skills, People come to Burning Man, and they learn how to be leaders, I know it sounds crazy but that's what happens when you get put in an extreme circumstance, and you're asked to do something that you really care about, and you want to do, but you don't really know how to get it done, you learn really fast and hard, and you do that with other people. Through that experience you learn what true leadership skills are. So we're actually a global movements; we have 300 representatives around the world and have events all around the world. And we teach leadership.

KATZ: And you see, when you're there on the desert, with however many thousands of people, humanity, creativity and authenticity, You see the potential of what humans could be, and all the time I was there, as I was volunteering, as I was just spending time with people. I remember having a meeting with somebody in the desert with a pink hippo driving past, and he owned a very, very, very large agency. I remember looking at him and saying; “what would happen to your organisation If you unleashed the full potential of every single one of your employees. Now THAT would make you successful. And so all I saw while I was there is experience, psychological safety, being incentivized to be 100% yourself, and the power that brings. Sorry for gushing but it's changed my life. So what do you do at Burning Man.

HARLEY: So I'm one of the six founders and the experience that you had when it came to Burning Man, most of the things that you experienced that were infrastructure are things that I created. So how do you get in safely, and find your camp, and get the resources you need. If you need something from us and if you need to have some medical support or Rangers or you need someone with a radio to help you, I set up all that infrastructure around the city for over 10 years, and I learned a lot. and so now I'm the Chief Culture Officer,

KATZ: The Chief Culture Officer, yes. Okay, so that being said, What's your first story that was inspired when you looked at the CREATE Framework? what pinged to your mind about how you are the leader that you are.

HARLEY: Well I have to say I was thinking back to a time before Burning Man was much of anything. It was a camping trip in the middle of the desert that I was very committed to but I needed to earn a living. And I was also a painter, so I was trying to support my artistic endeavours. So I had a job and I was given the opportunity in my very first job as a manager to grow an entire team, and I was creating a new revenue stream. Now I didn't know how to grow a team or create a revenue stream. I hardly knew what a revenue stream was. I'm not from a business background, I was an artist, so I just used my intuition and looked around and used the skills I’d learned in life, and started creating this team and lo and behold, very quickly, we started meeting all the milestones. My boss started believing in me . And I found that I loved the people I was working with, and they seemed to like me. We got to this point where we went into the black and we were now a part of making this organisation better and I was so excited. We were all so excited. So I thought okay, now's the time to take our next step, we're going to professionalize, we're going to like start really walking our walk and talking our talk and looking the way we should be looking. So I thought long and hard about what we should be doing to reach the next level. I wrote an email I spent a lot of time crafting it, I included everybody in it so everyone's sort of personalised in the email, I talked about what we needed to do next and how we were going to get there, and I sent it off. And the next day I came to work, and I noticed that people's body language had changed towards me. My staff's body language changed towards me. People weren't looking at that me in the eye as long as they used to. They weren’t wanting to spend time with me. One person walked away from me. I was thinking what's going on? I started hearing through the grapevine that I had sent something out that had really upset my team. I couldn’t even imagine what it was because I was just so fresh and new. And then that person who walked away from me had the guts to come up and tell me: “you know you embarrassed me and isolated me and called me out in front of my colleagues, and that's not okay.” And I was like: “I did what?” I had no idea how I had done that. We had a long conversation and I realised, first of all, I had used the wrong tool. I should have sent out an emai. I should have had a group meeting, we should have been able to look each other in the eye, we should have celebrated together. We should have been able to look at each other's body language and smile and hug each other.

Secondly, by trying to include everybody, and I actually caused division, I actually started separating everybody, and people became self conscious, and in some cases embarrassed. And then I realised I'd lost TRUST I didn't even realise I had trust, I didn't even realise that was the key, but when I lost it all the sudden I knew, and I realised I used the wrong tool, I realised that, instead of bringing people together I divided people, and instead of elevating I really pushed people down and made people feel isolated and I learned so much from just one mistake.That was really the foundation to my success from that point on,

KATZ: it’s very difficult when you've lost trust, even though you don't mean to, even though that isn't your intention, to rebuild trust again is so so difficult. And I completely agree that actually, especially when you're a leader in a large company or when you're too busy wanting to get to those KPIs, and you want to win and actually then your team becomes less efficient, because they are less respected, they're not quite sure where it's coming from. That is not a good move. Thank you for story number one. Thanks for being so honest and authentic. it's not always easy to talk about the things we do wrong. What’s story number 2?

HARLEY: Within months I was building about five volunteer teams. Now let me tell you when you're paying somebody a pay check they're willing to take uncomfortable situations or less professional situations or unproductive situations from their boss… but when people are volunteers. If you don't get it right, they're gone. Or, they’ll just give you an earful. I learned so much from that situation by sort of building all these teams at once. I started building them on TRUST on TRANSPARENCY on RECOGNITION and RESPECT and CONNECTION and COLLABORATION. That was the baseline model. And what I realised was, was when I put somebody into a role and created a team that there was a whole subtext going on, there was a whole other thing that was going on at the same time. And if I could pay attention to that other thing; the informal roles, not the formal roles that they were hired into or volunteered into but the informal roles - that I could get so much more productivity out of the team. So what I discovered was that it probably varies from group to group. One person would take on the archetypal role of being the person who sets the pace, the PACE SETTER like how fast we're going to go, what's our language?how do we work together? How quickly do we get it done or when do we take time? When do we pause? Somebody else took on the role of being the STORYTELLER filling people in on why we're doing what we're doing? Reminding people what had happened in the past? And creating the vision for the future. Another person took on the role of CHEERLEADER "We're so glad to have you with us. And, oh, we didn't do that great on that one but next time we'll do better.“ Another really important role was THE MEDIATOR, the person who said: “no we have to build a bridge sure you guys this communication got a communication breakdown and if you guys don't get along, we can't move fast well together so Let's heal the world.” Another person would be the BEAN COUNTER. Do we have everything we need? Have you crossed all the T's you dotted all your I's ? The person with the spreadsheet in the background. They are great for making sure that all the little things are taken care of. Another was the GEEK; tThe person who made sure that our technology was up to grade.That we had the best app to use. And and last but definitely not least, the TYRE KICKER: That’s the person that you go, every time I say something, he pokes a hole, He’s a NAYSAYER. But you know what, that's a person who makes everybody think twice. That’s the person that ensures you make the best decisions, because they're they're challenging you, so that you always rise to make absolutely the best decision.

Notice I didn't say LEADER. These teams don't need a leader. They’re working at their best - individually and in connection with each other. They are a unit - so if the boss is not the leader they need them to be, they can work around the boss. If the boss is the leader that the team say : I trust you. I trust you to make to help me get to where I need to be. That is the ideal situation, but if the boss really isn’t really fulfilling the leadership role somebody else in the group can,. Let’s be honest, the way somebody really, really becomes a leader with a group is by earning it. You can't come in and get paid for it. You can't have the education to claim it. It has to be given to you by your team. So you know you don't have one they will still be able to work effectively and efficiently. You'll work better if you DO have a leader, and it's actually best if the leader is your boss.

KATZ: Indeed. Btilliant. That’s the mistake that I see made all the time. A leader in the formal organisational model has been given a role, and therefore they make the mistake that that’s enough. They've got that role so people have to follow them. One of the things we spend a lot of time talking to the leaders that work with is just be very aware of your informal influencers! Make damn sure you know who those influences are because they may not be the people who make it to the top. They may not be a leader, and indeed they may never want to be a leader. They may be really happy where they are. An informal influencer is the person who everybody else goes too for advice and information.

HARLEY: That’s exactly right.

KATZ: And if you don't listen to those people, if you don't empower those people, if you don't make them feel that they're being respected and rewarded and given the space to have a voice. They can be the most destructive and disruptive people. Because they're either influenced positively, or they'll influence negatively . I keep saying: “you know your job as a leader of any organisation is to make sure that you're not just aware of the formal organisational model and how it all fits together, but that you're aware that underneath that tformal operational model, there are the roles you talked about, and those roles shift. They shift on a daily basis sometimes, and I know exactly what you're saying about volunteers. I'm running a volunteer organisation as well as my day job at the moment. But you don't have any choice. If you're not treating people with EMPATHY, with RESPECT, giving them a chance to have a voice.Those voilunteers will just walk away. Wouldn't it be an amazing world if all of the leaders bed like that. I watch in Marvel because I see the respect you get. How many volunteers work with Burning Man every year?.

HARLEY: We just did an inventory. We have over 13,000 volunteers. We need to make the event happen. Holy moly. Every single one of those volunteers knows their well why they're doing it they've got clear purpose, and right orienteering experience

KATZ: They’re probably one of the most beautiful times I've had a Burning Man

HARLEY: That isn’t he first time I've heard that

KATZ: Because you are working on something that's so much bigger than you are. You are a part of something so much bigger. Vint was talking about when he was building the internet, he talked about the cathedral. Where everyone could see what the building was going to look like, but each built their our own brick. So they feel like they owned it. And that's really feels what Burning Man feels like to me. That's brilliant. Thank you, Holly, what's your third story?

HARLEY: The third one is again one where I learned a lot. I was dropped into a situation where I had to take over a big huge chunk of our organisation; life safety for Burning Man. We have 80,000 people who come to the middle of nowhere. And we take their health and safety very, very seriously. So there were three men who were running the three most important portions of that infrastructure, and they were all extremely good at their job, highly qualified with years of experience. They were each running teams of, you know, between 500 and 1000 people. But they didn't get along. They didn't like each other. I don't know how much trust there was, there was little empathy. They just didn't get along. So I came in, and I needed to have things run more efficiently because that was just one question of my job and I couldn't spend all my time trying to build the bridges between these people, I had higher aspirations and more work to do. So I thought I'll go in and meet with them, and I'm gonna find a solution and I'm gonna give them a solution. So I sat down with all three individually. And I spent a lot of time asking a lot of questions about the way things work ,and why they work the way they do, and why they don't like the other person and what their ideal world would be. I came out of that with all this knowledge in my head. I thought okay, certainly we're going to bring everyone together and we're going to build a bridge here. I'm going to find some way to have these people figure out how to work together because I've learned during this process how beautiful they were, and how much emotional intelligence they had and how much they're compromised and learned in their own lives and how much humanity they had as individuals. So sat them down in the room and really didn't get anywhere. A lot of talking, but no change. And I actually had to live with that I had to spend more time than I wanted to being the bridge between these three men, for a long period of time. If I had the information I have now, then I would have done something different. The individual conversation was the right thing to do but I asked the wrong questions. I should have gone in and said: “What are your values? What what do you believe in? What makes you tick? What do you have to have to be able to function well?What’s a stopping point - something you can't compromise on, something that you will not give up? I should have understood why they did things the way they did that was so successful. Then I could have walked into the room with these three men as a facilitator, and been able to find the places where they had commonality. Everything would have been on the table. We could have had an honest conversation and I think we could have made the progress.

And what I learned was that because of they can build a good hierarchy and work within their own silo shouldn't mean they can work across the silos with other departments. You can absolutely do both things and it's really important. People in our militarywho become a five star general can build a hierarchy, but they work across their silos as well, they find commonality with their peers, to elevate the decision making, to make sure the decision they makes is the best for everybody. I’ve realised you can do that, and I saw how it didn't happen and how perhaps it could have.

KATZ: Thank you for sharing that. That's amazing. And it's funny because I've always assumed that the kind of people who make it to the top of the the military, the Army, the Navy would be very command and control, and I happen to over the last few years have become quite close to people who have been very, very senior in the military. The oint they make is that they wouldn't let anyone near the tools, until they absolutely know that soldiers at levels understand the vision that they buy into the mission, that they 100% trust you to make the right decisions for everybody. So they don't even touch a gun until that's done. They set a vision and clear mission, get people to buy and ensure know they're trusted and can be trusted. At that point, then you can let them get on with it and to do the right thing for everyone not just for their department. If you don't make people feel that they're part of a connected community, that are all working towards a shared vision, you can end up with some very dodgy situations. it’s taken me a very long time to realise that's what military training is about. Interesting. So thank you, Harley, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this. I totally appreciate your time, your three stories have taught me a lot, and given me a lot to chew on and I will.

HARLEY: Can I just try to tie a thread together a couple threads together, would you mind

KATZ: Harley I’d be surprised if you didn’t break the formula.

HARLEY: Well, so, in my first story, when I did something foolish. If I had admitted I was wrong in that moment, I would have made it so much faster, so much easier to build back the trust. My advice is: whenever a leader has an opportunity to admit when they're wrong. They are creating an environment where other people can do the same. They are creating an environment where honesty is paramount. They’re creating an environment where people can really be themselves, can admit their mistakes and can thrive, and we can all learn together we can all learn from each other's mistakes so admitting your mistakes is so important.

The next thing is having a difficult conversation : I think it's really important to before you walk in the room, to understand what questions you really need to ask for that difficult conversation, but more importantly to find some way to connect with that person before you walk in the room. I call it “find the love” what you love about that person. If you think love is too strong a word, call it what you want. Call it something that you admire or call it find some kind of connection, but if you walk in the room and come from a place where you're already setting the tone of humanity and sharing and being equal to somebody or at least empathic, to somebody else you're gonna have much more success at having that hard conversation. And then people don't appreciate people enough. If you appreciate people, they will not take a raise because they feel valued. You can really lean into that. and you can appreciate so many different kinds of ways, you know, the public announcements great but some people get embarrassed. Maybe it's a private conversant or maybe it's a private lunch, maybe it's giving somebody more inside information or sharing with them some some secrets about yourself or, or about the business. There are so many ways to appreciate, they're so important that we don't spend enough time doing it, if we did it, people would be happier.

And the last one is creating some kind of tradition. Tradition that you can do with everybody on a regular basis gives people an opportunity to see how an individual fit into the context of the greater whole. It’s such an easy tool, and it's fun, and it works without people even realising it, People just don't use tradition or ceremony enough. It's so easy

KATZ: I wonder if you could give us an example of how you set up a ceremony. I’ve seen you work in the Burning Man office in San Francisco. So tell us, give us an idea of what it means how you actually man

HARLEY: Sure. As an example whenever we sell tickets, we all wear pyjamas to work. Why would we wear our pyjamas to work? Because in the olden days when our tickets went on sale, everyone would be trying to get their tickets so fast it would always break the ticket system. There would be some piece of technology that would break down, and the poor tech team was scrambling so hard behind the scenes to get everything up and running again, to be able to sell the tickets, that they never get out of their pyjamas. So in solidarity, we all wear pyjamas. Now, we don't have to anymore. All of our technology is fine now, but it just reminds us every year of where we came from, and another one is that our Rangers, the non-confrontational mediators that keep our city safe, have a pin that they only get when they’ve been a ranger 10 years. They get to go to this amazing ceremony with all these old timers with all these new people, and you get rewarded for your service for 10 years, it's just a teeny little pin it doesn't cost anything, but I can't tell you how many people keep working for 10 years to get that pin, Then they stop rangering afterwards. That pin means so much to them. It’s actually their succession planning. People talk to each other about how long they’ve had their pin. It just adds so much to people's sense of accomplishment, their autonomy but also being a part of the greater whole.

KATZ: Again it’s all about REWARD and RECOGNITION. That feeling of APPRECIATION, of knowing that actually people have bothered to see how much of your life you've dedicated to the success of the company - and it's powerful. You are 100% Imaginal leader highly Dubois. I can't thank you enough for your inspiration. For the next few hours my brain will be buzzing about the things you’ve shared so thank you for your learnings and I hope to see you physically soon in San Francisco, when this madness is over. Thank you, Harley.

HARLEY: Thank you so much for having me. This has been a wonderful time for sharing.

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