Swimming Upstream with Amy Edmondson

+ Notes

Amy C Edmondson is an engineer, a researcher, teacher, bestselling writer, the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School, - and a key inspiration for my work.

After an enviable start to her career, working with one of the 20th Century’s most original thinkers, Buckminster Fuller, Amy has dedicated her career to exploring how to create work environments where humans thrive, so business and society can thrive.

In this wonderfully warm conversation, she shares crucial truths we all need to hear : The Illusion of excellence in enterprises is dangerous. Every company is a system. , a system littered with risks and opportunities for improvement. Your team should be seen and heard loud and clear. Those opportunities will only surface if you ask the right questions, make sure people feel safe to answer truthfully and really listen to the answers. Even though it may not feel good.

+ Transcript

0:00 KATZ KIELY To humans, leading humans towards the future works for people snackable stories to help you be a more effective leader. Good morning, good afternoon. Good evening, wherever you are, whatever you're doing. Thank you so much for finding time to dedicate the next half hour of your one precious life to listen to this podcast. My guest today is Amy Edmondson who is a Novartis professor of leadership and management at the Harvard Business School. And more importantly to me, she is one of my heroes. Or should that be heroine. Note that sounds all wrong. Okay. So one of my heroes, she is one of the four people who have most inspired my work and my thinking and whose research is behind the work that we do at Beep. So I'm absolutely overwhelmed and delighted that she's found time in her busy schedule and believe you me, she really has got a busy schedule to share the results of her findings and energy and our experience. So I'm super, super excited to talk to her. But before I do that, before I introduce you to Amy i i just wanted to share something that bubbled up just before I started recording this. You know how I like to think out loud. So my guest last week was Gary Coombe, who is the CEO of Gillette which is as you know, a massive, massively profitable global brand. He is, as you might imagine, slightly busy. And I loved doing the interview. I loved his honesty. I loved his on his vulnerability. I love the fact that he was so honest about the fact that he was still on learning journey, because guys we all are, but that's not what I wanted to share. What I really wanted to share with you is on the day that I launched the podcast, I got a personal email from him, thanking me for the experience of being a guest on my show. And that just touched me so much. It just really meant a lot to me. It really means a lot to people to be thanked. Think about the last time that you worked your ass off on a piece of work and the person you delivered it for took it from you without a single word of reward or recognition or thanks. It feels absolutely awful. And Dan will no doubt tell you about the research he has done on recognition when he joins me. So the point I'm making here is listeners, it takes hardly any time and zero pennies to thank people for their effort. Just remember they have one precious life, the time that they dedicate to the work they're doing for you is precious. So saying them and that's a perfect segue isn't it? So that I can say a massive massive thanks to you. For all of you people who send me feedback and suggestions of what they've liked what they haven't liked so much. What they'd like to see more of the people they would like me to interview. Your feedback is really important to me, good or bad. Doesn't matter. I want to hear from you. So head over to katzkiely.com and you can sign up for the newslette. The human leadings and humans leading humans newsletter. But more importantly, use the form to contact me to send me your feedback. Or if you really want to you can email me, I'm katz@wearebeep.com See what I did there. Anyway, now to the important stuff. Let me introduce you to the frankly fabulous Professor Amy Edmondson.

4:21 KATZ KIELY Amy Edmondson Oh my god. I cannot believe that you're a guest for Humans Leading Humans. See dear listeners, this would be the point where I would normally explain to you how I met my guests along amongst my crazy network of people. So I can tell you that this is a slightly different situation. And there are probably three people that have informed my work more than any other researchers. One of them is Amy, Dan Arielle is another and I'll be talking to him in a few weeks time. So she is not going to be following our format. We are going to be having a really interesting conversation on I'm genuinely delighted. So Amy, tell the listeners, how did you end up doing what you're doing?

5:18 AMY EDMONDSON It's actually a question that may have a overly long answer. Because it was circuitous. It was their circuitous path. I studied engineering, and design in college. I was extraordinarily lucky to get a job right after college with the inventor, architect designer Buckminster Fuller, who was at that time in his mid 80s. And he hired me as an engineering assistant for some of the innovation projects that were underway really largely related to geodesic domes and geodesic math and it was a glorious three years. Bucky died in 1983 of a heart attack at his wife's deathbed, could not be revived. Now he was a week shy of 88. So this is not a tragedy. This was a beautiful life well lived, left me thinking, what next? I'd had this extraordinary experience of working on interesting projects that I believed were in some way, making a better world now. I don't don't don't ask me to elaborate but that's what I believed. I think that was Fuller's life work was how do we do more with less? He was talking about sustainability back in the 1930s. So there I was, and ultimately, I'm not an inventor. You know, I'm not I'm not a particularly good engineer was able to do the work. But I understood that there was other work I needed to be doing. Instead, I just didn't know what it was. After Bucky had died, I committed to writing a book, a layman's guide to his mathematical thinking. And I found a publisher and academic publisher. And the book is called "A fuller explanation. The synergetic geometry of our Buckminster Fuller". Nobody would want to read that it's, you know, it's very specialized. It was fun for me to figure out how to be a writer because in college, I had done problem sets not writing, right. I'd been more on the technical side. So I had to learn how to write and to support myself at the time I had various teaching gigs. So I had to learn how to teach and I had to learn how to write and there was a part in that period where I realized that's what I was good at - was sort of teaching and explaining -explaining hard things in simple terms. And so I didn't know where that would take me but it was in the back of my mind. I finished the book and then had to find a job. And I found a job in organizational consulting. Essentially, I met the founder and CEO of a company that when I was giving a talk on Fuller's work, and he hired me and so I didn't know what I was going to do. But to make a long story short in the three years of working in that company, I fell in love with the field of organizational behavior and organizational development. And I began to think that the technical sides of things really couldn't be effective without the human side of things. So and that was what I think I was more naturally inclined to understand the human dynamics. And I realized, after not too long that I needed more education, so I applied and was fortunately accepted to do a PhD at Harvard in organizational behavior. I was not sure exactly how that would work out and it was touch and go for a while. It's a very different language, the language of scholarly organizational work is a very different language than the work I was doing. And I almost left several times but didn't and then ultimately, I got I got the hang of it and stayed in the academic setting from that point onward.

9:21 KATZ KIELY And, dear listeners, if you haven't listened to Amy speak, read her books, then I would strongly advise that you do. So Amy, and it's so fun, isn't it? Everybody I interview they, you assume that they started on this linear track to where they got to and of course none of us have, we've already gone through these crazy circuitous routes. So I wonder whether I can ask you Amy firstly, in an attempt to simplify 20 years of experience, I've pulled together this thing called the Create framework, which we use as a prompt to talk to leaders about the environment where the humans either thrive or do not. Tell me what are we missing? What Is there too much off?

10:11 AMY EDMONDSON I don't think you're missing anything. I think the devil is in the details. It's so how does one for example, ensure a sense of respect? How do you recognize good work, just to pick the R and how do you reward and there's a lot to be said on every one of those things. So well as a framework. I think that's really helpful because it's memorable. It's "create", it's memorable. You stop, you pause and you think about connection and collaboration. By the way, certainty seems to me the enemy here, certainty is something to get rid of right? We because our certainty is what gets in the way of our learning. But the idea, let's go back to the framework. Having a framework. One could almost say doesn't matter what framework but having a framework that forces you to go back and say, okay, where are we? What are we missing? How are we doing? To reflect in action? Nothing could be more important than that.

11:13 KATZ KIELY Thank you. And I think your point uncertainty is absolutely pivotal and important. And when I'm talking about certainty, I'm talking about people knowing how things are gonna happen, and I don't mean what the outcomes going to be. Right? But about kind of knowing what the what you're so may have to rethink that consistency has come in since. So, a lot of your work is around the concept of our leaders job is to create environments in which people feel psychologically safe. Can you please explain to the listeners what that really means and the importance and the value of that?

11:55 AMY EDMONDSON I'll start by saying it's a terrible term. It's not my term although it is the term from the literature from the psychology literature does capture what I'm talking about. So a psychologically safe environment is one in which people genuinely believe their voices are welcome. Right? Which at first glance, sounds like oh, it's going to be comfortable. It's going to be easy. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's going to be the opposite of comfortable, but we're going to be comfortable being uncomfortable, and it's going to be a place where I can speak up when I'm not sure about how to do something, or when I have a dissenting view, or when I really believe a mistake has happened that needs to be looked at and corrected. And in most work environments I think this isn't a big surprise, in most work environments those things just don't happen and not because people are lazy or bad but because it's utterly natural to hold back. It's utterly natural to wait and see to read the tea leaves to not want to stand out in a negative way. In front of one's colleagues or one's managers. That's just human and it worked quite well in the industrial era. It doesn't work today.

13:14 KATZ KIELY I wonder whether you might give the listeners a couple of examples of where people not feeling safe to speak out has had repercussions.

13:24 AMY EDMONDSON The example that comes to mind first, because it's actually where I got my start as a researcher as a PhD student, I was fortunately, and randomly asked to join a project looking at medication errors in hospitals. And so you might think, Oh, wait, those you know, those shouldn't happen. Well, of course they happen. They happen all the time and not because of any lack of competence or laziness. But because the processes that happen in an ordinary tertiary care hospital are incredibly complex, and importantly, customized so that what that means is you know, it's Imagine running a factory where you have no idea what the supplier is going to send you today. And that's what you do when you're running, let's say an emergency department in a hospital. And so by its very nature, a complex error prone system, let's say that's a given most people don't didn't at least didn't use to talk about that. Now they do. And so it's a given that things will go wrong. The only thing that's not a given is whether people will speak up about them in a timely way to catch and correct and prevent harm. And so, to me, my original interest in a psychologically safe work environment was because I could see that it mattered for catching and correcting to avert harm. And so that's a very, you know, clear and compelling place where where this matters, but it matters if you're on some kind of truly playful product development team in a consumer products company as well. You know, can you speak up with that kind of totally out of the box idea or are you worried that you'll people will make fun of you because totally out of the box idea might not be very good on its own merits, but it might spark the next idea, you know, it might allow the team to do something truly exciting and compelling ultimately for the customers will love and, and so, in one, it's preventing a failure in the other it's enabling an innovation in both cases, it's utterly dependent on people's belief that their real voice their real truth is welcome.

15:44 KATZ KIELY And there is I was just thinking through if there's a quadrant that you use, of course, because you started consultancy that quadrant when I'm talking to many leaders, they go, oh, yeah, but that's also you start being soft with people, right? It's not making them feel too safe and they get lazy. Right?

16:13 AMY EDMONDSON To me, that's confusing psychological safety, with motivation. Those are two different things, right? One is let's create an environment where candor is expected, welcome. Bad news, good news. We want it all. That's one dimension. We can talk more about that. The other is how do you motivate people to care about the work enough to give it they're all? Two very different things and I do not believe one is more important than the other. But I do believe in a highly interdependent and uncertain environment you need both, because it is very easy in an uncertain and interdependent environment to have the illusion of good performance. When you don't, right? If you have a kind of like just we're going to motivate we're going to make sure people really know that good performance is expected and it's not safe to speak up about the things that aren't working. Then for a time it might look like all is well, but it's not. That's the story in my book "The fearless organization". I have probably a dozen such stories one would be the VW Dieselgate scandal. That to me is a beautiful story of the illusion of excellence. They were flying high, Greencard of the year award, you know world's largest automaker, and it was all built on a lie. It was built on software that cheated the regulators. That's not the result you want, right? You do not want to be headline news for failures, scandals, etc. And that's the risk you take if you over emphasize what I'll call the you know the motivation axis and under emphasize the psychological safety axis. And clearly, you want both you want people all in, motivated, engaged, and candid. And when you have that you have what I call the learning zone in that two by two you mentioned. But truly, if you're in an uncertain, interdependent world, that's the high performance zone or that's the only place you can get high performance.

18:23 KATZ KIELY And you're exactly I mean, obviously this is singing to this, this is exactly what we're about at The Beep, it's about actually, if you can create an environment where people not only feel safe to speak up about the things that could be better, but feel empowered to actually get on and collaborate with people to find fixes. That's where your continuous improvement comes in. Yeah, give us more examples of that, actually, because I think it's very easy for C suite leaders to do this thing where they're probably not even aware of it, but they're just making it impossible for their next level down to bring them bad news. Just want to let good stuff.

19:05 KATZ KIELY It's human, right? It's human. You know, I think if they adapt, you know they don't do this on purpose. If they stopped to think about it, they too would realize yes, we live in a volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous world where things go wrong where good ideas the next big thing comes out of left field. And yet the mindset the you know, the taken for granted ways of thinking and expecting what will happen next are often at odds with that VUCA world. So it's human, to look happy when someone brings you good news and to look unhappy when someone brings you bad news. It's human. It's also problematic, because it's slowly but surely not so slowly, sometimes precludes you from getting the truth. And that of course, is not what you want it you know, maybe in the moment I'd rather have non truth than truth. But, you know, if you're a thoughtful professional, you realize no, we I really do want the truth, you know, the good, bad and the ugly and so people are kicking themselves in the foot without realizing it. They're creating the conditions whereby it's hard for people to tell them the truth, and it just postpones the inevitable in some cases.

20:25 KATZ KIELY 100%, 100% I said all of the time, and yes, I'm just thinking about how then have you seen organizations? How have you helped senior leadership to really understand how they can create the environment where people genuinely feel okay? I was thinking when the reason I hesitated I interviewed this amazing woman called Kim Coleman who's set up an organization called "Rebrand the future". And she talks a lot about the golden rule. Treat people and planet the way that you would want to be treated yourself. And I was just thinking about actually, every single person knows if you see something that can be improved, you're going to talk about it anyway. You may as well you might not talk to the people who should hear about it. Right? So what do you do? How do you give us some tips?

21:15 AMY EDMONDSON I think what I'm about to say will, again, sound unsatisfyingly obvious, but maybe it's helpful anyway, right? If you're let's say a senior executive or a team leader, it actually matters to point out the things that you and I've been talking about meaning wow, no one's ever done this before or wow, we live in a VUCA world or the customer's needs keep changing, right? So name, the reality that makes others voice necessary, because if you don't name it, if you don't sort of emphasize it, you're then stuck with the default. And the default is that people should be you know, seen and not heard, you know, the default is, you're going to hold back until you're absolutely sure that what you have to say will be welcomed, right? We can point to endless evidence that that's the case, right? So you have to override the default. How do you do that? You know, you continuously do what I call framing the work and you frame the work as, for example, I talked about healthcare a few minutes ago, is and said, the tertiary care hospital is by its very nature, a complex error prone system. That's a framing statement that says wow, this stuff we do, it's almost guaranteed to go wrong at various points, and we don't know which points else we kind of programmed them out. And so by saying that as say the CEO or the medical director of ICU, by saying that I'm letting people know that I know, things go wrong, and therefore when you speak up, you're the hero, not I don't know, skunk at the picnic. You're the person who's helping us be better, not the person who's sort of disrupting our wonderful harmony, which was artificial harmony in the first place. So the most important thing, I think, is to just keep pointing out the wonderful challenge of doing what we do at a high level of excellence and then be explicit in inviting people's voices through good questions. Or through structures, focus groups, encounters that make it harder to stay silent than to speak up.

23:31 KATZ KIELY And talking about reward pays, I mean, just thanking people. Thank you for saying that. And if you're thinking oh God, that's really uncomfortable right? Now, and being different and not doing group think.

23:45 AMY EDMONDSON Right, right. And it doesn't have to be fake. It's true, right? If you bring bad news, I say I don't say oh, how wonderful. I say thank you for that clear line of sight, right? Because it's what I just said as a truthful statement. It's a reward. Right? Because you've been rewarded human to human for truth telling, not for lying or not for covering up or for silence, because basically the default is people are rewarded for silence all the time. You're silent. You're not bothered for one more minute, you keep your job. So it's a matter of making that response that makes the unnatural become more compelling.

24:28 KATZ KIELY And there's I think there's a really clear line between the fact that people aren't allowed to be honest, aren't allowed to be authentic, can't talk about the things that aren't working right on this profound problem with, you know, the great disengagement, and as they're saying, then the great resignation, people are not going to put up with it. And I think especially now after COVID I think people have gone - hang on a second, am I happy with this? Is this life?

24:59 AMY EDMONDSON Yeah. Right. Is there more? Is there more?

25:03 KATZ KIELY Yeah, yeah. So Bracken Darrell from Logitech has got this brilliant phrase that I stole off him shamefacedly. Which everything can be better, always. And if you start from that place, it's just like, well, it's not perfect. Nothing's perfect. We can make all of this better. So come on, tell me how.

25:23 AMY EDMONDSON Right, right. And that's a framing statement. It's not perfect. And by the way, that's a framing statement that goes against what people will assume otherwise. I like to say nobody wants to tell the boss his baby is ugly. And, and, and they literally assume we've actually studied this people literally assume that the status quo that those above them feel a sense of ownership of the status quo, whether they believe it to be good and, and a worthy representation of their prior efforts. And so you feel, you know, the disincentive to critique the status quo is very great.

26:03 KATZ KIELY And the truth is in many cases, the senior leadership has no idea what the baby looks like.

26:09 AMY EDMONDSON Right. And they didn't. They made it right. They don't they don't feel any more, you know, sense of it's, it's sacrosanct nature than you do.

26:20 KATZ KIELY Yeah, exactly. Okay. So is that what normally in our, in a normal form and that would be story number one. Thank you. And I could honestly carry on that conversation forever. Continuous improvement, just making sure people understand that nothing's ever finished. And it's your job to show it better and better and better. And that's a frame it's a great frame. Exactly. And the second thing that I'd love for you to kind of help the listeners understand is, how do you get the best from your teams? What does a good team look like?

26:56 AMY EDMONDSON I'm gonna start with purpose. I mean, I think a good team starts on the same page about the why. The why, because teamwork is always going to be challenging. Work is challenging. That's why it's called work. So it's always going to be challenging, working with other people even more challenging, and exciting and and rewarding. But so start with "the why". I think without a compelling sense of that it matters to someone that we do this and do it well,you won't do it well. So being clear and getting on the same page, taking that little bit of time to kind of talk about why I'm excited that we're doing this and what I'm scared out but what I'm worried about. So it's it's the why and then it's building a little bit of relational connection with others, but not around your life story or your personal life. That can be nice too, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about your aspiration, your goal your hopes with respect to this project and your worries and, and and your resource, like what do you bring and when people just share those tiny little bits of crucial information. They're then poised to do the necessarily iterative work that lies ahead. And, of course, I've spent a lot of my research time focused on the finding that psychological safety then a climate of candor in teams, is a critical determinant of performance.

28:31 KATZ KIELY Could you give us a few examples of that, just in case people are silly and not enough not to have read your books or read or heard.

28:40 AMY EDMONDSON It makes sense for me to start with the research findings and because it's more compelling to talk about than my own I'll talk about the Google study and project Aristotle, which was about five years ago. The study was over several years, 180 teams, maybe 200 different variables included in the research and the number one predictor of team performance at Google was psychological safety, which tells you two things. One, it tells you psychological safety really matters for having an effective team, especially teams doing knowledge work, and who isn't? They need to be able to speak up honestly, they need to critique they need to ask questions, all of that. And if they don't have a psychologically safe environment, they just won't, they will hold back. So it tells you how important that is to performance in today's world. It also tells you this is very important, that this is a factor that like it or not, tends to vary significantly across teams, even in the same organization. So you might think, oh, my organization has a very strong culture and you would likely be right you know, strong whether it's good, bad or indifferent. If you work at company X, kind of everybody sort of gets what the company X culture is like, I get what that Harvard business school culture is like, that's where I work and it's very distinct culture. But psychological safety varies substantially, I assure you across departments, right? And that's, and so it's, you know, each department is its own little world, right? And we all share the culture for sure. We are all embodiments of that culture. But that doesn't mean we have the same level of psychological safety. So teams, departments, branches, units depends on what business you're in, can have their own climate and that is a critical determinant of how well they perform.

30:48 KATZ KIELY And I think it's one of the things that we work on a lot is trying to help leaders to understand actually, for me, communications is a really, really important part of that. Yes. How do you communicate your vision what you want the culture to be? And that does not mean telling them? Oh, communicate this broadcast. It's about where are they? How do they feel where they are? How can you make sure that the communications you're having with them, not to them, makes sense to them and will add value to their life? And the other thing that we talk about a lot is empathy. And I mentioned empathy, meaning making sure that actually when you're in a team environment, whether that be inside your business unit or department or region or whether you're working collaboratively, it's about really understanding who that other person is, and connecting with them on a human basis. So I wonder what that provokes in you, Amy?

31:47 AMY EDMONDSON Well, I think that's right. In fact, I talk about creating psychological safety can be described as coming from a stance of humility, curiosity and empathy. You know, humility to know our we don't have all the answers, curiosity to be deeply interested in what others are seeing and thinking and then of course, as you say, communication is not just talking, it's listening, and the empathy to easily imagine myself in your shoes, say bringing me the bad news or facing that really challenging problem or whatever it is, right? And if I can sort of come from those places of humility, curiosity and empathy, I'm going to inadvertently spin off a psychologically safe environment, full stop.

32:33 KATZ KIELY And it's so hard, because we're human and because we're always around ideas of the best ideas and we want to hear the good news and not the nad news. So Okay, before we finish our conversation, which I know that you know, I'm really really so delighted that you've taken time to do this, Amy, I know how busy you are. What advice can you give to senior leaders in complex organizations, but they'd be universities or corporates or governments because as far as I know, in my life, they're all facing the same problems. So is there anything sort of pragmatic, that you can give tips to the leaders who are listening and also not just senior leaders? We're talking about managers, people who have to deal with people.

33:15 AMY EDMONDSON I think it's worth pointing out the leader is a position, as you say there lots of different positions, team leader, CEO. But leadership is an activity and I do believe that everybody can engage in leadership meaning an activity that helps create a better environment for others in some way, shape or form. My number one practical advice for exercising leadership is - ask more questions. It is human to tell, to explain, to advocate. It takes a little bit of stop, you know, breathe, reflect, and get curious to remember to ask questions, but it will always serve you and others well if you ask questions, really good ones. And remind yourself that you're in a constantly changing world. So even if you are unbelievably knowledgeable and expert and wonderful in every way, you're still missing something and care about that, you know, if you really remind yourself that you're better off when you close those many gaps that you have, then you remember spontaneously to ask questions. So it's about changing the frame. So that you can then change the behavior. But the number one behavior to change I think this is very pragmatic and doable is ask more questions. Work focused, work relevant, you know, targeted questions, what are we seeing out there?

34:45 KATZ KIELY Asked Questions. And make sure that he's given enough space for people to answer them. As opposed to the other thing. Listen. I've already got the answer in my head. I'm just looking right.

35:00 AMY EDMONDSON Right. I'm looking for you to fill it in. Yeah.

35:03 KATZ KIELY Amy, what an absolutely fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for your time. So here's the thing we always do at the end of Humans leading humans is ask my guests, what would you like to call your episode?

35:16 AMY EDMONDSON That's a very creative question. I mean, it's a it's a question that requires a creative answer. Swimming upstream.

35:26 KATZ KIELY Oh, I love that. Swimming Upstream is what it's gonna be called. Thank you so much for your time, and energy and expertise and

35:36 AMY EDMONDSON Thank you for your energy and expertise. It's a delight to talk with you.

35:48 KATZ KIELY Okay, thank you again. Amy, I just loved talking to you. I've listened to you speak so many times. I've read your books and just to have the chance to actually have an open conversation with you has been awesome. And, again, thank you for dedicating time to share your experience and your expertise with the lovely people who are listening to this podcast. So there you go, dear listeners. When we tell people about Beep, which is all about surfacing, shared challenges, and empowering people to find solutions together. What leaders often say is oh my God, the last thing we want to hear is people moaning. You my dears, can stick your fingers in your ears lah lah lah as much as you like. But you will be missing so many important insights. It's your job to make the truth sayer, the hero of the piece. Ask really good questions and make time to really listen to the answers. make it harder to stay silent than to speak up. And that means, dear listeners, whatever level you're at, whether you're managing five people or 500 or 5000 people, you need to be pretty darn courageous. And you've got a silence that little voice inside of you, telling you that you know everything and only wanting to hear the good news. So thank you again to all of the people who send in feedback. Please, please get in touch with me. And let me know if there are other behavioral scientists future future of work experts, leaders who you've worked with who've inspired you that I should invite to be a guest on my show. You have been listening to Humans leading humans towards the future of work that works for people. This podcast is brought to you in partnership with the marketing society. So if you are a senior marketing leader, and if you happen to need the knowledge and the know how and the networks to succeed and you're not already a member, get over to their website and become part of that tribe. I would 100% recommend it. A massive massive thanks to the fantastic super Terranea for the magical sting of stings. Go to wearebeep.com to find out more about the create framework and how we support companies by unlocking the problem solving potential of humans. If you lost this episode, and I bet you did, pass it on to your friends, pass it on to your colleagues, anyone you think might need a shot of inspiration who or who should listen to the message of this podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. Please subscribe. The links are in the notes, please don't miss any more of this storytelling magic be inspired, be imaginal be more human and I look forward to seeing you next week.

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