Business.. Be More Punk Rock! with Martin Wezowski, Chief Futures Officer at SAP

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Martin Wezowski is Chief Futures Officer at SAP, one of the biggest companies in the world. In this high energy interview, he explains that he learned about the core tenets of real leadership from his teenage punk band. He talks about how he embeds real and continuous innovation and growth by Leading from the future. Selling a clear vision, clear, common purpose that everyone in your team can feel and see Giving your people permission to be change makers and engineering relationships Empowering people to be playful,, curious and unreasonable to push against the status quo

+ Transcript

00:15 KATZ Welcome to Humans Leading Humans towards a future of work that works for people. A smorgasbord of snackable stories to help you be a more effective leader. Today's guest is Martin Wezowski, who's the chief futurist and head of the future hub at the third biggest software company in the world, SAP, who is, believe me, an absolute inspiration and 100% Imaginal leader, You are about find out why he is absolutely convinced that corporates across the world need to get more punk rock. So I can't wait to hear his three CREATE stories. Just before I started recording this, you probably know by now that I like to think out loud, so here goes, Martin and I and actually lots and lots of the people that I know and work with have been in bands, since we knee high to grasshoppers. Being in a good band is wonderful and it's an ultimately collaborative thing, writing songs is organic. Yes, one person does write their lyrics and another person might bring in the core structure and the chords but everything else from there on in is a wonderful creative flow, which somehow, something will emerge that is so much greater than the sum of the parts. A good song is never finished. It's a living, breathing continuously improving entity. And then, when I was super young when I first came out of college I shifted into film production. And the same thing goes, you do start from a shooting script. That's very true, but the creative process thereafter is agile and collaborative. So, the production designer might put something in the wrong place, and everyone goes: “oh do you know what may be better.” The actor might fluff a line, but the director (or a good director) will go: Do you know what I like it! Let's stick with it.” So every person on a film shoot is part of this sort of fluid creative process and the director's role is just to get the very best out of every single person to get to the best outcome for the audience. And that's how innovation should be in companies because the truth is that every single product and process and policy can be better. Always. And everyone, everyone at all levels in all departments and business units should be part of that continuous improvement. And the leader's job should just be to make sure that they create the environments in which humans can thrive. And that is why I'm making this podcast. It's made with love. And I mean that,, for those people who work in complex organizations who are struggling to break through the rigid, old ways of working, and therefore they're struggling to get the best from people. The point of this podcast is: it is your go to Audio fuel kit, packed with the short stories, the snackable stories, the tools, the inspiration we all need to shine as leaders. And I can promise you, today's stories will most definitely give you a much needed shot of inspiration and energy. But before I introduce you to the phenomenal Martin, I just wanted to say a massive, massive thank you to all of those people who have sent feedback and suggestions for improvement of what you'd like to see more of, what you enjoyed and how I can improve the show. Your feedback is really, really important to me. It energizes me, so please keep it coming. Head over to katzkiely.com and sign up to the Humans Leading Humans newsletter, connect to our social channels, and to www.wearebeep.com and keep connected, become part of the community, let me know what you love and what you dont love so much. Enough of that. Let me introduce you to Martin. I can't tell you how happy I am to have you as a guest on Humans Leading Humans.Listeners, I always try to explain how I've met people, or how they've ended up as guests on my show. Martin is part of the most phenomenal global network of innovators and doers and thinkers and techies called KInnernet And so we've found ourselves in various corners of the world, in various weird and wonderful situations and Martin, like me, is a musician, and I've always wanted to get on stage with him but I have never yet persuaded him but that will happen. So, Martin. Would you like to tell our guests? What have you done, not who you are because who you are is an extraordinary creative, warm, multifaceted chap.

06:12 MARTIN WEZOWSKI Thank you. I am Martin Wezowski. I am also the Chief Futurist, and the head of something called the Future Hub in a big, big company called SAP. I report with what we do, which is the vision for the Future of Work and what SAP should bring in that Future of Work to the market. We report that to the board. Through my boss, and the border is technology and innovation so I'm in innovation, I’m in strategy for the biggest company on the planet so far when it comes to business technology and business applications, business software.

06:51 KATZ Very impressive. and I'm sure at moments, challenging as it is with all large companies. So, I sent you the CREATE framework and what do you think…?

07:03 MARTIN WEZOWSKI I think it's fantastic - because it gives me and hopefully everybody that has seen it exactly that - a frame to work within or with. With all these words, as I usually say, you need to first say if you need to articulate stuff otherwise there's no discussion. Put some artifacts on the table before you ask for an opinion about something, Have something to touch and look and experience before you have an opinion how that would feel, because feelings for something is very important - and when you look at that CREATE framework you see these words, they are actionable.. The stories of our day to day mentoring and leader in leading and being led and being mentored live, includes these words, for example, Whatever it takes to fix a solution of technology. Technology is a part of leadership. It helps us to reach out. Empathy. Empathy is a part of leadership. It helps us to understand and feel. Experimentation since I’m in the radical transformative innovation space for SAP, very very high up, there we are affecting the next 10 to 15 years, we need to experiment. Without that, there is no future. So I think it's a fantastic framework. 08:13 KATZ Thank you so much. So, Martin. Story number one.

08:19 MARTIN WEZOWSKI So my parents managed to escape Poland in 1984. They managed, boom, we are in Sweden, I'm 14, know nothing. This is new to be here. Okay, I learned the language very quickly, and I'm sitting with my new friend Max. He plays in a punk rock band. Punk rock has been a leader for me. You know I can easily feel that with punk rock I can just say straight off :more punk rock in business right now. Look up the values of punk rock if you can't feel them yourself. Experimentation is one of them basically. As is challenging the status quo. And try to implement them in your leadership. So, Max says: “Martin, would you start playing guitar in our band?” “Well, that's fantastic, but I can't play guitar! never had a guitar in my hand.”Also I’m not sure I’m the creative type!” He doesn't listen, basically gives me a guitar, and he says: “Just use these top two fingers. Don't touch the other strings. That would sounds terrible.” So I press down with my top two fingers and strum. I think nobody told me that you can just skip the other strings. So he says :”Great, great, move the fingers closer to you. Good, good, great, don't just move them away from you, don't change anything, Good you’re in the band!” [laughter] Exactly! I was thinking: ‘What the hell?” He said: “yeah you played three chords, that's the only thing we will do in our band. So you’re in the band. I'm sitting with the guitar in my lap and I was thinking. So there's all the other strings so I'm feeling more confident all of a sudden, and I'm stretching my fingers because you know I can do that, and I'm playing a chord. It sounds like a terrible absolute disharmony, and I'm asking: “Max. Max, is this a chord?” and he turns around and goes: “well, now it is!”
These two moments: “you're in the band” and “well, now it is! You just made it so it must be a chord!” These are two leadership moments. I'm not sure Marx was aware of that, he was 15. But he led me and taught me to allow the space for creation and innovation. It's one of the biggest leadership things you will do, and that's experimentation that happens immediately when you have the creative confidence to try that last chord. It gives me the Mandate. He gives me the funding; I can't afford a guitar- he gives me one. He gives me the physical and intellectual space to explore and experiment. He was natural. He allowed me to feel confident. And if you guys are questioning yourself- just sit down for a minute and try to feel what the other person would feel and what would you have to do to make them feel confident. To create this confident space, a space of psychological safety. To even go so far as to create their own little creative friction, like me stretching my fingers. Nobody asked me to do that. It sounded terrible. But I tried, I failed and he was: “Yeah, that's great. Now it is a chord! It sounded terrible,,, don't use it, but it is freaking chord!” You just see what I'm saying: this is empathy, experimentation and mutual understanding in a circle

11:44 KATZ: And permission, and courage and open courage because when you've got people breathing down your neck, and you're heading up innovation, and they're expecting the thing, and to actually hold space for people so that they can play is not easy, where do you get the courage to do that.

12:12 MARTIN: I think it comes from a common purpose, or common allowance, it's again the space of psychological safety. So play as a comparison to non place to to task that must be complete, to a process from this to this, please do. Let's not play. Let's follow the rails. First, I think with any technology, things that are repetitive should be automated. It's not a human task. And if you lead people to repetitive work you should consider to try a technology that makes that happen. Don't be that leader. Play comes out of curiosity. I think there's an important question. I am a believer that humans and machines will live in empathic symbiosis. That's my vision for the future of work, and there will be a moment where we'll transcend them to be the same species. Good question is: what would be the last thing that remains only 100% Human not mixed. What wouldn't it be the last thing that machines will understand how we do and what we do and help us with that. And I think it is something I call the Curiosity led Purpose Seek: We are seeking the purpose. Why are we here? Why is this important? We do it with the fuel of curiosity, and when we do this curiously, we play.

13:31 KATZ Love that. That was an answer. Okay, making my brain buzz- what about story number two.

13:37 MARTIN WEZOWSKI So, there's some years later and I thank you, Max, because now I actually have a career. And I'm at Sony, The big corporation. I’m a creative producer, I'm a designer, and I'm designing “mobile phones with cameras.” Back then this is how we called the camera phone as it didn't exist. it was more a phone with the camera. Very early. this was before I for this 2003. And what we do is make a vision. Lead from the future is the story. What do you see? The engineers was sitting in the room. So many of us. “Oh, we need the lens. It's only three centimeters thick but we can fit it in and you can just stick it out and so it's going to look terrible”, Nobody would buy it! “Oh we need more resolution” “That would be too expensive guys” “What is the best camera in the world?, I mean Hasselblad is!” Every single person had their own answer about how to make this engineering excellence. The best of the best. And I said “Guys! Everything you just said exists already in other cameras. Why is this our thing?” And I'm a designer, they are engineers, I'm really not in this sort of leadership position. And I'm twisting that by saying: “Look, you know, the pictures, the memories, and everything we so when we catch that moment and review that … and it's a wonderful memory! Can you feel that guys? Can you have an empathy for people that shoot and then go: “Hey look! We were there with the picture of you. You look amazing or whatever ...you look funny. Can you feel that? “They say “Yeah, okay” “I want people to capture all of these moments, and then relive them. To be able to visit them like in a time machine. That's our job. The ultimate camera is the time machine, but the best camera in the world is the one you have with you. The Hasselblad, you don't have with you. You can't afford it. If you have one, it's probably at home because it's too big and too expensive. You see what I'm saying. So lets make everything pocketable, and as best as possible in that size and in that pocketability. Even the edges should be rounded to slip into your jeans! Engineers, please help me. I have this future vision. Can you feel the empathy? And they go: “Oh yeah, yeah, I get it. Okay”

It changed everything, the whole room started to work together. People went to work because they felt the vision I mean: time machine? Really? Science fiction? We are a serious company?! We had a clear purpose, and the complexity of this purpose keeps everybody working together towards that dream. If you feel something, nothing scares you anymore, because you know how it will feel when it's done so you go in. But if you just understand with your brain and logistics and bullet point list, you might not be as eager to work towards that shared vision.There are strong correlations between empathic companies and good market capitalization. Actually empathic companies are twice as profitable! So that's my second story: Lead from the future and you can turn people around. Make them feel and make them see what you feel and see.

17:06 KATZ And indeed I would go so far as to say it is the only way you can lead. If you can’t set a North Star, whereby everybody around you in their complexity and doing and their busy being busy, if they can't see the thing that you're trying to get to you most want just forget it. You're like ants scattering, not going going where the central function is, and you're thinking about functionality functionality functionality. What for, I always think of that, you know the three blind men and the elephant Buddhist story.

17:40 MARTIN WESOWSKI Yeah, one part, one part but not the whole, I think that having a purpose. It's such a hard thing to understand. But if you have a purpose. Purpose can only be felt. You cannot buy a purpose or acquire it in any other way, you can have the t shirt, but you need to feel it. I feel it, I mean, you need to have the empathy for the cause. Why are we going to the North Pole. Half of us will die. The purpose is discovery, and the human mind of exploration. Aha, I can feel that. Let's go!

18:18 KATZ 100% So you wouldn't advise just like bringing in a purpose agency then.

18:23 MARTIN: Oh, you can do that but it's a very, very good way to quickly get rid of some money, you know, Because they cannot be you. They cannot be you. I think it's a great idea to experiment and question your purpose. Again; Why are you relevant 10 years from now? And please guys, don't die on me here because it's a burden to think like that. But as a leader, you must understand that if you cannot start to intimately unpack that question for yourself, for your team, for your business maybe - you will not be relevant 10 years from now! Relevance means your customers seeing you as relevant; emotionally, intellectually.. If you are, you have a future with them. What I'm saying is, build relationships, the rest will follow. Design relationships, engineer relationships. The camera phone is a social tool. If you can feel that relationship and see how they will feel using your engineering, you're building relationships, the features the data the engineering will follow.

19:43 Brilliant. Just brilliant, and 100%> Story number three.

19:51 Number three, this is a short one, but it's hard, it was impactful. I was feeling it, Took me a day to come to terms with the beginning of it, even. So I'm now working, still at Sony there, and I am in charge of these phones and we are on the third or fourth series,, so I'm feeling pretty confident I'm leading this, And I have great designers working on ideas that are proven on the market. Now it happens to be so in our team in the leadership team at Sony the person that created the Walkman. The very person. Who created the walkman. This guy is in his 60s, I guess, but back then he is a hero for Sony, Sony is very patriarchal and hierarchical, unfortunately. Don't lead with patriarchy and hierarchy. Just saying. Now when we talk about leadership and feeling, and relationships, hierarchical relationships are practical. Use them, but don't stick to it, they are just a flavor when you're cooking your leadership relationships. Back to the story; we are in the room, a lot of people, heavy duty folks because we have that Walkman guy from Tokyo on the phone, and I'm presenting: “Guys we need to keep the buttons in the same way. People get used to the phones and they trigger the camera from this volume button or whatever they do” He insists that we should move them around because this model is different. It's almost an argument. But I am equipped with real data, real opinions and real design structures and concepts that support this. We have evidence from the market. He gets tired of me and says:’ Martin, who are you to tell me where to put the button, feature, whatever.” And I shut up. Everybody shuts up because you know, the God had spoken. The frustration. The darkness. You know, when you just pulled to the ground. And I'm thinking: Okay, I failed to sell this to him. I failed in this room, my boss and my boss’s boss is here and my colleagues are here. I'm totally not leading this, I'm so not leading. He just took over the leadership, with some kind of hierarchy with his historical background.

I couldn't answer. I was blown away. I couldn’t find the words, I was not capable. I couldn't sleep. I was so frustrated. I was angry, and I realized my only answer should have been: “Who am I? I am the creator of what we have right now on the table. I am the one that made it, created it, fostered it to where it is today and want to take it further. Who are you?” But I didn't say that. Because I couldn't find the words. My emotions took over. That was an important moment to stand up for myself. Next time, and see if I have the courage to do that.

23:05 KATZ : And also, the leadership that he showed, if there was an opposite to the CREATE framework where you're going to human brain into the threat space - in which you are least capable of being creative, innovative, communicative, making good decisions. He exhibited that.

23:28 MARTIN: it was the total opposite of the emotional, intellectual and mental safeties zone, psychological safety. It was the opposite. And that was an important learning to me. So these three stories guide me but the one I'm really keeping a close at heart is the punk rock one: “You're in the band. You just played three chords! I mean, did I really.?” But he said it so therefore I had the, confidence and with confidence comes experimentation, the innovator’s DNA, the questioning. That's a big story. And lead from the future. Have a vision folks, where will you be 10 years from now, not next quarter. We know why you're relevant next quarter because KPIs. They won't make you survive. Lead from the future. Lead with the passion and the feelings and the relationships you want to have on the market, the rest will follow. And lead with psychological safety. Don't be the patriarchal hierarchical leader. Be the open hearted, inviting emotional leader,

24:32 KATZ Full of curiosity and purpose. So the very last thing we have to do Martin before I let you on your incredibly busy day, no doubt. What are we going to call your episode of humans, leading humans.

24:50 Ah, More Punk Rocking in Business.

24:54 Okay. That'll do me the imposter inside you, as a creator. Got this feeling and you want to say this thing and you haven't got the courage to say, and then you say it and people go, Oh, that's really cool.

25:13 MARTIN : One small thing I would like to add to any of these stories is: love unreasonable people. You know I'm biased, I'm in the business of change, radical transformative innovation. That's my business. You may be in different business so please take me with a grain of salt but I'm looking for ultimate change and radical change and reasonable people are admirable - because they can walk into a room and reason themselves around. They can understand, they can have empathy: “Oh this is a funeral. This is a celebration of very successful business.” ...whatever - in a split second, they are reasonably thinking about what should we do, what can we do and so on. They are absolutely emotionally equipped to confirm the status quo. You see where I'm headed. My job is to change the status quo, The unreasonable people walk into a room and they actually think insanely enough that they can change the world around them. And since they think so, they are the only ones that actually do. Please be more unreasonable.

26:20 KATZ : Oh my god, I love that. I love what you just said Martin I can't thank you enough

26:27 MARTIN:I don’t kwow how that fits into your story format but I just wanted to drop that because I have it as a story that is abstract, I'm unreasonable. I'm a punk rocker- so he doesn't relate to a specific story but there you go

26:40 KATZ : And human beings are hardwired to hold on to the status quo. So that's that's the thing we should be pushing against

26:47 MARTIN : Hardwired, you need to stress that. People think “oh no I’ve pushed the status quo again” “Mo worries. Fine, I'm with you, I feel you. We are rhe same monkey. We have to play our way out of the status quo! Thank you Katz, This was such a wonderful challenge. And it took my brain away from my daily business which is wonderful as well. But now back to business. Okay. Thank you. See you soon

27:22 KATZ: comes as no surprise Martin, beyond brilliant. Thank you again for your, your energy and your expertise and your wisdom, I love doing these interviews with these people. And I keep taking away the same thing and I hope you either do it doesn't matter whether you're a CMO or a CTO or a CHRO or a CTO - C whatever it is you are. Your job is one thing to empower people to make them feel safe, to care for them, to watch their back. That's it. Because those people are beautiful and wonderful and they can do extraordinary things, if you give them the space. If you can be courageous enough to do that. Anyway You have been listening to humans, leading humans towards a future of work that works for people. This podcast is brought to you in partnership with the marketing society. And if you are a senior marketing leader and you need the know how, and the network's just succeed, and you're not already a member, get over to their website and become part of that tribe, I would 100% recommend it. A massive massive thanks as always to their fantastic super Terranea for their magical sting of stings, go to www.we are beep.com To find out more about the creative framework and how we support companies, by helping leaders, unlock the problem solving potential of humans. If you love this podcast and I hope you did pass it on to any friends and colleagues you think might need a shot of inspiration and energy. Thank you so so much for dedicating the time to stay with me, please subscribe. The links are in the notes. Be inspired be imaginal be more human, and I can't wait to see you again next week.

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